Ultimate Holdless Plot Thread

[Cathaline]

The Western Ring Islands play host to the vast majority of the non-Trader holdless of the continent. Those who are exiled, or who elect for whatever reason to leave the typical Hold-Craft-and-Weyr setup of Pernese society, tend to migrate to the islands to live their lives. This is a dangerous existence; not only are they exposed to the elements, but they are outside the protection of the Holds. Crimes against holdless aren't crimes to the Lord Holders.

The holdless we are looking to portray for this plot are basically the best of the worst. Exiled for crimes they didn't commit (or at least, they claim innocence and are not considered a danger to others). The families of criminals. Good (or "good") people who have come together to build a community and to protect each other, since they can't trust anyone else.

This particular community actually has a fairly successful lifestyle for holdless, farming for themselves and such. They do have a dark secret: they've been stockpiling weapons, and many of the leaders of the clan hope to take down the Holds of the Western Continent and take it for themselves. Sometimes their motives are noble, sometimes a bit less so. This common goal has been recently thwarted by the plague. They do not currently have the numbers to succeed in a coup, and won't for a long time, so any political agenda is on the backburner.

They get by because the Ring Islands go largely ignored by Weyr and Holds. That will not be the case for much longer. As noted in the more specific thread for the wild wher hatching, two of their number will, on Impression, be taken to Dalibor for training. The rest will be noticed soon after for reasons I am not at liberty to divulge.

What does this mean? INSTANT PLOT AND DRAMA for holdless characters!

WHAT YOU CAN DO:

- Characters who are eligible for dragon candidacy will be available for searches.
- Characters who are eligible for wher candidacy will be allowed to volunteer at Dalibor.
- BOTH types of candidates will be thoroughly vetted (no known or marked criminals!) and closely watched.

Holdless characters will almost certainly face an extended period of suspicion and paranoia on the part of the Holds and Weyrs. The exact motivation behind this will become crystal clear in a few weeks' time, but if you want to get in on the ground floor, so to speak, now is the time to begin crafting your character concepts!

[Azhdarchid]

I was asked about holdless and Shunned and I figured I would share my knowledge/interpretation of the book canon on the subject here so that people can comment and Cath can comment on how it is different in Dali canon.

There are a few different types of holdless on Pern:

Traders - Another way you could describe these people is "sanctioned holdless." They operate the tithe trains from minor holds to major ones, and major holds to the Weyrs. They ferry craftsmen between halls and holds. They operate their own trade routes and do their best to take goods cheaply in one area and then resell them where they are most valuable. Bear in mind when I say "value" here I am mostly referring to barter value- only the best traders (the leaders of caravans, more commonly known as trail bosses) end up accumulating Marks. Some of the original colonists were traders and they never had interest in the Charter or land stakes, and though they might not have been well-understood by the other colonists, they were respected.

Over time such respect has declined. Caravans have always had an insular element, and traders are more likely to mingle with other types of holdless, further decreasing their standing in the eyes of holdbreds. Each caravan tends to have its own societal norms, derived separately from the holds'. Some caravans do engage in violent, brigand-like actions, especially against other caravans and against the holdless. But to most holders the traders are nothing but polite, and keep their little territory wars entirely amongst themselves.

Shunned - People who have incurred sufficient criminal debt to warrant their exclusion from their home hold and who have been marked on the forehead with an "indelible blue dye" so that everyone who meets them knows who they are. The practice of shunning also originated among the first colonists, who exiled and shunned one of their own. Shunning is basically pretending someone doesn't exist: if they ask for food or water, you ignore them or turn them away (and you are entitled to use force to accomplish this), if you find them occupying your land, you evict them, and if they are injured you have no requirement to heal them. Though Shunning is supposed to affect only the person who committed the crime, it inevitably affects their spouse and children as well if they have them. Shunned often band together and continue to commit minor thievery, as it's the only way to survive. Thus most brigands are shunned or relatives (often the children) of shunned.

Shunning to me appears to be a low-class punishment. Thefts, random assaults, and other petty crimes may warrant Shunning if the holder feels it's necessary, or if the thief is simply caught by an excited mob with some dye on hand. Holders (of cot, minor or major holds) are dealt with differently (see the next category).

Bear in mind that most Pernese can opt to duel to resolve arguments, and so long as these duels (even those that go to the death) are conducted honorably, neither party is in danger of being shunned. Someone could also specify that their opponent be shunned if they win a duel. Average Pernese are not allowed to duel with dragonriders, and duels between dragonriders are conducted via fisticuffs or to first blood only. Dragonriders cannot get other dragonriders shunned through duels.

Exiled - These are people whose crimes are sufficiently severe that they warrant being exiled to the ring islands, or holders who commit any sort of crime. They may be marked as Shunned as well, but exiling alone is sufficient punishment in most cases. The two chief crimes that will get you exiled are murder and rape. If you are a holder, you can also be exiled for failing to adequately prepare your subjects for Threadfall, as well as any minor crime (since you are supposed to be setting an example). Note that first punishment of any rapist on Pern is castration. Whether or not they are also exiled is up to the judge of the case, typically the area's Lord Holder. This is true of any punishment for any crime, except for crimes committed by the Lord Holder, his Lady, or his heirs, which are instead judged by the Lord Holders' Conclave. The Exiled's family can choose to go with him/her if they wish, though in a Pass, being Exiled is very much a death sentence. Dragonriders are not required to fly the ring islands.

Worker-Prisoners - This small category of holdless are those that are marked (as if Shunned), but then sent to work in the mines of Pern. Since Pernese technology is not terribly advanced, mines are incredibly dangerous and most miners have a much shorter lifespan than other Pernese.

Additionally there is the question of how people are handled while awaiting judgement. In "Dragonseye," criminals were stowed in holding cells in the major hold of the area. This appears to be the only form of jail that Pern has, so I would expect any criminal awaiting trail would be taken to the hold of the Lord Holder that will judge him/her and stowed in a cell there. Note that in "Dragonseye," these cells (in Bitra Hold) were poorly maintained and the prisoners kept there ended up freezing to death. However, Bitra is known to be a pretty awful hold (in the "Dragonseye" case the Lord Holder ended up being exiled, in part due to his treatment of the prisoners but mainly because he did not prepare his subjects for the coming Pass) and should not be considered representative of all the other holds.

For more information about criminals on Pern, I suggest "Dragonseye"/"Red Star Rising" (UK title). The Toddbooks have extensive subplots concerning the Shunned as well (but the Toddbooks also have clairvoyant psychic traders that use the Craft system so...y'know).

[Cathaline]

The only thing I would note, that I am aware of, which may be different from what Azzy has written here is that in our canon, exiled criminals are definitely marked (so there is no question of them sneaking back into another Hold and carrying on with their crimes). Excessively brutal crimes may result in capital punishment, which, on Pern during a Pass, is accomplished by staking the criminal out for Thread. This is extremely rare because of the sheer level of horror involved; a person would have to do something particularly heinous to warrant it, and some Lord Holders would not consider this punishment at all for the ick factor. It is probably more common for holdless groups to stake their own criminals out for Thread than for someone to be put to death by the Holds, but they'd still think twice about doing so. Thread is the ultimate enemy, so using it against another human being is one of the most shocking things anyone can do, and it is not done lightly in any case.

[Lan]

DEAR ZEPHYR,

I see you are making the holdless girl, Mouse. I am making a holdless boy, Matthaus, who will later be called M'aus. Obviously they need to be BEST FRIENDS FOR LIFE. Don't you agree? =D

LOVE, LAN

[Zephyr]

DEAR LAN,

Mouse would be thrilled to be bfff with Matthaus. And to also throw mud at him, because that's how she rolls.

LOVE, ZEPPY

[Lan]

DEAR ZEPPY,

Matthaus is okay with getting thrown in the mud so long as mud pies and mud angels wherries are sure to follow.

LOVE, LAN

[princesal]

Could I revamp Harrin and make him a Holdless character?


I do have a question. Where are the blue markings usually? Can they be anywhere, are they prevalent in other places? Should they always be normally visible (unless purposefully covered up, like on the neck... but a scarf can cover that)? Are there any normal/regular symbols?

[Azhdarchid]

The forehead is the standard location. Yes, they always need to be visible. In some of the Toddbooks they literally just wrote a "S" on the forehead, but S's aren't very cool so it could just be "marking" in general. So long as it's easily visible.

And Cath's Thread-staking punishment is book canon as well, I just forgot. x:

[Minute]

I was wondering, is it possible for a dragonrider or wherhandler to end up exiled or shunned if they did something particularly horrible? Or for someone to do something awful then run away before they can be exiled and shunned? I was hoping to make a holdless wher candidate and a holdless rider/handler if I can get my hands on the marks.

[Chimera]

I'm a little confused - can we have our characters be in the same group? Also, if a child of a shunned person has done nothing wrong except probably minor thievery for survival, could they be accepted as a wher candidate at Dalibor, assuming they want to stop their holdless life if given the chance? I just want to make sure.

[princesal]

I have several questions, but one right now is: If the parents of a child are shunned and marked, would the child be marked as well, or taken from the parents? What if the mother was pregnant?

[Azhdarchid]

Apr 29, 2013 10:27:13 GMT -5 Chimera said:

Also, if a child of a shunned person has done nothing wrong except probably minor thievery for survival, could they be accepted as a wher candidate at Dalibor, assuming they want to stop their holdless life if given the chance? I just want to make sure.

Apr 29, 2013 11:53:47 GMT -5 princesal said:

I have several questions, but one right now is: If the parents of a child are shunned and marked, would the child be marked as well, or taken from the parents? What if the mother was pregnant?

Unless both parents were participating in the same crime simultaneously and were both judged the same, they would not both be shunned.

However, the critical problem with Shunning is that when one person is shunned, they may take their entire family with them into holdlessness. Children of Shunned are never shunned/marked themselves, but holds don't have creche systems to accept them. If both parents were somehow Shunned at the same time, or if an unShunned spouse elected to follow a Shunned into holdlessness, they would generally bring any children with them. Negotiating any other situation would require the cooperation of people still in the hold, which a Shunned cannot generally acquire. Many Pernese (in the books, at least) are obsessed with bloodlines, and would not accept the children of a Shunned anyway out of fears that they would turn out the same.

[Rappu]

Dear everyone, once I get Ksenna up and running she needs some holdless pals, being a new holdless herself.

[Cathaline]

Could I revamp Harrin and make him a Holdless character?

Yes, of course!

can we have our characters be in the same group? Also, if a child of a shunned person has done nothing wrong except probably minor thievery for survival, could they be accepted as a wher candidate at Dalibor, assuming they want to stop their holdless life if given the chance?

It is in fact preferable for any holdless for this plot to come from this particular group/clan/commune of holdless.

As long as they're not marked and are able to convince the leaders of Dalibor that they are not a threat, they would be accepted. For wher candidates, Audren is the ultimate authority. Dragon candidates probably have it a little easier - since they are searched and judged to be good people by dragons themselves, they won't be as strongly eyed before being taken in.

I was wondering, is it possible for a dragonrider or wherhandler to end up exiled or shunned if they did something particularly horrible? Or for someone to do something awful then run away before they can be exiled and shunned?

It would be unlikely, because dragonriders are vetted by dragons in order to stand and Impress in the first place. Very, very few dragonriders have the capacity to commit the kind of crimes that would result in such severe punishment - because remember, it would be punishing the innocent dragon too. A rider who is a rapist will be castrated, a rider who murders another rider would probably be exiled with their dragon. That kind of tragedy effectively leads to the loss of two dragons, however, so again, it's rare. Specific Weyrs may also turn away certain riders, forcing them to either seek another Weyr for a fresh start or remain on their own, but that would take some more extreme "what is happening right now" on everyone's part. Basically, it is a rider's own empathy (required to Impress) which keeps the Weyrs from having to deal with severe punishment of them except once in a blue moon.

Handlers are not as important, at all. A handler could easily be shunned or exiled. If their wher was considered dangerous, the wher might be put down before it can cause problems (i.e. you don't want to be marking up a redhandler while their red is still hanging around).

And yes, a criminal could escape before being caught and punished. It would probably not be easy for them to start anew if the Holds are searching for them, but it's plausible.

[princesal]

I was wondering if we can get some official dates/years? Like when the Holdless came together on the Islands. The size of their village/community, and what it can be compared to. Any certain laws in place that we should be aware of?

I have some actual questions, but I'm going to check the information threads to see if I can find the answers.

Edit for other questions:
-What is the Largest Hold? Largest Weyr? What are they comparable to? Like... is the biggest Hold comparable to a Castle? a Town? Both? Are the living quarters only inside the Hold, or are there other buildings around? Would bloodlines be taken into account during shunning/exile? If two people become lovers, and one in Holdless, but the other works inside the Hold, what has to happen for the Holdless person to become part of the Hold? Is it an interview? Investigation? Or, if they are found without a criminal mark, are they easily accepted?

[Raining]

I am excited to roleplay in this plot, and develop my new character some more :D
Also all the holdless frands please <3

ps; also ty Cath for the quick acceptance haha!

[Chimera]

Once Lirmox is done he is obviously going to be smoooth and negotiate allll the friends.

[Raining]

Saowyn is curious as to how those negotiations will go.
But she will not complain haha

[Chimera]

Lirmox is basically "Let's be friends and not argue but my opinion is better" and he tells people they're his friends but he feels uncomfortable actually having a friend

[Azhdarchid]

Apr 30, 2013 8:51:23 GMT -5 princesal said:

-What is the Largest Hold? Largest Weyr? What are they comparable to? Like... is the biggest Hold comparable to a Castle? a Town? Both?

In the First Pass, Fort was the largest hold. There's not much information on later Passes, and even less so since Dali does not follow the Ninth Pass book canon.

Dali canon also has vastly different Weyr territories from the book canon in the case of the Southern Continent Weyrs. In Dalibor canon, the Southern Continent was being settled starting in the Ninth Pass (but without the end of Thread to accelerate it as in the books). The Southern Weyrs must cover far larger territories than the Northern Weyrs, which might necessitate much larger dragon populations. However, the South is also sparsely populated and the vegetation there is naturally resistant to Thread (DON'T ASK ME WHY THIS IS BECAUSE THE ANSWER IS TELEKINESIS), and the soil is home to Thread-eating grubs (DON'T ASK ME HOW THIS IS ACCOMPLISHED BECAUSE THE ANSWER IS TELEKINESIS), so of their total territories the Southern Weyrs may only be protecting the coastlines and rivers, whereas Northerners have to protect every inch of their land (except maybe Igen).

As you can see from the map below, Dalibor has the smallest territory, but it also has a disproportionately small population of Threadfighting dragons and thus will always be strained meeting its protection requirements.

Azzy's Interpretation of Weyr Territories (click to embiggen)

I expect that despite the large theoretical territories in the south, Fort remains the largest Weyr, and Fort Hold the largest Hold (I am selectively ignoring the Telgar Hold population number from DLG).

Regarding the hold populations, I borrow from this page: "The only other Area population figure is from Sixth Pass when Fort has 'nearly ten thousand'(1) (Nerilka's Story). DLG wrongly uses this figure as being 9th Pass, but treats it and other population figures interestingly as being the number of people directly involved with feeding the Hold - for spreadsheet purposes CITYFEEDERS. This is most convenient, and when compared to Hold populations (CITYPOP) it looks to be within medieval limits." DLG's populations: Fort Hold/Total (825/10,000), Benden (550/9000), Telgar (1000/15000)."

Weyr populations are probably something like 400-600 dragons in full-strength Weyrs on the northern continent. The capacity of Southern Weyrs is unknown. Dalibor has room for about 420-430 dragons at full strength. For more hilarious/brain-breaking insight into dragon demographics try this page.

Apr 30, 2013 8:51:23 GMT -5 princesal said:

Are the living quarters only inside the Hold, or are there other buildings around?

All Pern buildings must occur under stone overhangs aside from temporary structures (ex. for a Gather). There aren't "buildings" in the traditional sense. However, if you consider the structure of mountainous areas, there's plenty of room for smaller dwellings (think hobbitholes) in the foothills of whatever cliff or mountain possesses the main hold. Minor holds and cotholds exist wherever there is a good cave or rocky overhang. Weyrs are almost exclusively in the remains of volcanoes (calderas).

[Cathaline]

Igen is also known to be one of the smaller Weyrs of Pern, if not the smallest. The area surrounding Igen and its Holds is largely desert, so it is one of the most sparsely populated (especially in the Northern Continent).

TIMELINE ISSUES: Western Hold was settled in spring 192. Holdless would have slowly begun to congregate on the islands in the turn or two following this, hoping to make a new life for themselves (and secretly hoping the Hold would fail and they could have the continent all to themselves). This clan/society had probably agreed to stick together against the REAL scoundrels and other threats by 194.

Would bloodlines be taken into account during shunning/exile? If two people become lovers, and one in Holdless, but the other works inside the Hold, what has to happen for the Holdless person to become part of the Hold? Is it an interview? Investigation? Or, if they are found without a criminal mark, are they easily accepted?

Bloodlines depend on the individual Lord Holder. A more corrupt Lord Holder might be bribed to judge a case differently if a well-known family (or his own) is involved. Of course, openly corrupt Lord Holders can be deposed by the Conclave, so they probably wouldn't take it too far.

Pern is a communal society and as such they are committed to the basic welfare of every human who is not Shunned. As long as there was no criminal tattoo, no known fugitive wanted poster, etc., a holdless (like a Trader or the child of a marked criminal) would be allowed to enter the Hold and be given the basic necessities and opportunities. This does NOT mean it would be easy going for them. Many, many Holdfolk distrust all holdless on principle, and a newcomer with a story of being holdless, no matter how sympathetic, is still going to receive the side-eye and be treated rather poorly.

It would be the duty of the Harpers stationed at the Hold to vet any newcomers, as the Harpers deal with the records (including population, births, comings and goings, etc.). If Holdfolk notice somebody hanging around they don't know, they would alert the Harpers, and the Harpers would investigate, which would include making sure the person is not a known fugitive or criminal.

[princesal]

Thank you so much, Azh and Cath. I'll probably have more questions once I get home, but I'm vomiting Harrin history, and I'm getting random questions as I go back in and fix. Is it alright to submit and unfinished WIP to have the points I've made in History looked over before I start refining them?

[Boo]

My fellow, who will hopefully be accepted eventually, Jakren is actually quite a major criminal. I offer him up as a scapegoat for anyone's bad crimes that he can be accused of committing some of the more violent crimes in people's histories. He also, though, brings food to people and things so feel free to include him if anyone wants!

[Minute]

I can afford a holdless! :D So, my question to you, holdless wher candidate or runaway wher handler?

[Chimera]

Now that more and more holdless characters are being accepted, if someone wants to start a thread I'd be glad to join in.