The Suggestion Box

[Cathaline]

To the best of my ability to discover, here are the updates needed to the sidebars, since I've noticed people asking about them.

Aika: missing Odelle, dragon candidate. Also, Krysthanine and Rethalt's links may change when they are transferred back/reapplied.

Azhdarchid: Ekuda should read "Journeyman Ekuda" with the rollover text as "Dolphincraft."

Blue: G'kar's link needs to be updated.

Boo: missing Ceserat, dragon candidate.

Cathaline: Kalenna's link does not work.

Gray: missing Doggarel, dragon candidate.

Kila: missing Tremayne, dragon candidate.

Kireon: missing Rhikail, dragon candidate.

Lark: missing Kurosaki, dragon candidate.

Purnip: missing Aldernon, weyrbrat.

[Admin]

I'll try to get to fixing those, but as a note: there is no consistency in terms of what the display text reads for non-rider and non-handler characters at this time. I originally had them all reading unImpressed, but others have applied craft/hold/affiliate. I also did finally figure out how to make them longer than one word now, so system needs revamping! I also plan on trying to apply the wher ranks (rather than simply wherhandler).

With this, new question: what do you want for info in the miniprofile?

[larkwing]

I wouldn't mind knowing how many character spaces I have left. With how many times people get confused while making them it may be useful as well as a quick pm button if we don't already have one.

[Azhdarchid]

Mar 8, 2012 23:55:26 GMT -5 @larkwing said:

I wouldn't mind knowing how many character spaces I have left. With how many times people get confused while making them it may be useful as well as a quick pm button if we don't already have one.

There's a "send private message" button in the lower of the two top bars now.

[larkwing]

Oh, I meant in the mini profiles *wasnt sure how clear I said that*. I've seen it on some sites where you just click it on a members mini profile and it automatically opens up a pm to them. I think when you have the option it shows up near the marks and other stats stuff. That way if you want to pm someone quickly without going to their member bio and then opening it up there you just click the button in their mini-profile.

Sorry if I'm being confusing its midnight over here. >.<

[Admin]

You actually have that option. Hit the folder icon in someone's miniprofile and it will open a PM addressed to them.

I can do the character counts if people are interested. I believe we could also add them to user notes so both you and staff could view them, but no one else; however, I'd need a test subject.

[larkwing]

Oh, okay so that's what that thing is. Derp, I never have actually clicked on it before to find out. >.<

Also, *raises hand* I'll be a guinea pig if you want since I brought it up anyway.

[Azhdarchid]

Why not make all the male dragons equal genetically and just limited by their ability to catch a certain size of female? I don't think browns/etc should have to be auto-turned-down by clutching flights because they can't make sufficient shinies, but it's also not fair to Candidates to give a brown a token win if that means they get a less interesting clutch spread out of it.

You could put in some kind of quota if you wanted to, like out of every 3 queenflights only 1 is allowed to pick a subking winner (and you don't HAVE to pick a subking, it's just an option), if you wanted to simulate the rarity of a subking actually being physically able to endure the Flight. For subqueens or males/females there's no need for a quota.

[Admin]

I'd love to hear other thoughts, but here is why the current system is in place/it is likely:

Genetically speaking, the biggest issue I see with that is that females should also be genetically equal under the same system aside from the infertility assigned to fighters so they can stay in wings. Grays should be able to produce Queens and there's no current IC support for that based on the system already in place. I consider it fairly sensible for females to be limited to a degree in what they can produce in order to hopefully favor more eggs (Kings from whites is the largest stretch) to big dragons and, given that there are genetic connections across genders and colors, I think the limits are reasonable. Players like shinies; survival of the fittest likes muchos fighters.

With that, there is the fact that dragons have undergone thousand of years of evolution and genetic manipulation to focus the breeding rights unto singular individuals that can be protected.

I do believe it probably is possible for the right Queen and the right Sub-King to throw a Queen; it merely falls into the ridiculously-impossible-less-likely-than-female-Kingriders and probably-less-likely-than-male-Queenriders category in the canon that has been used for clutches thus far.

As a note, Sub-Kings are also not auto-turned down for clutching flights. Less statistically probable to win, yes, as Kings and Queens are more fair-matched in size, but the fact our PC Queens have only selected bronzes and one iron is not a statement of what will happen. Truthfully, we aren't looking to produce Queens most of the time (and when we do, we now have three Queens to use). Sub-King males who have been given serious thought include Natoth, Perbiath, and Mesreath and I stand by the fact that, as an active played PC males, Sholth was my second pick for Kalith's most recent flight. I chose Daidoroth because Sholth is very tiny, but Kalith and him could make babies and they could produce Kings. If you'd like, I can include that possibility on the charts, even though it is very improbable.

[Azhdarchid]

SPOILER: Click to show

Mar 12, 2012 17:45:52 GMT -5 Admin said:

I'd love to hear other thoughts, but here is why the current system is in place/it is likely:

Genetically speaking, the biggest issue I see with that is that females should also be genetically equal under the same system aside from the infertility assigned to fighters so they can stay in wings. Grays should be able to produce Queens and there's no current IC support for that based on the system already in place. I consider it fairly sensible for females to be limited to a degree in what they can produce in order to hopefully favor more eggs (Kings from whites is the largest stretch) to big dragons and, given that there are genetic connections across genders and colors, I think the limits are reasonable. Players like shinies; survival of the fittest likes muchos fighters.

With that, there is the fact that dragons have undergone thousand of years of evolution and genetic manipulation to focus the breeding rights unto singular individuals that can be protected.

I do believe it probably is possible for the right Queen and the right Sub-King to throw a Queen; it merely falls into the ridiculously-impossible-less-likely-than-female-Kingriders and probably-less-likely-than-male-Queenriders category in the canon that has been used for clutches thus far.

As a note, Sub-Kings are also not auto-turned down for clutching flights. Less statistically probable to win, yes, as Kings and Queens are more fair-matched in size, but the fact our PC Queens have only selected bronzes and one iron is not a statement of what will happen. Truthfully, we aren't looking to produce Queens most of the time (and when we do, we now have three Queens to use). Sub-King males who have been given serious thought include Natoth, Perbiath, and Mesreath and I stand by the fact that, as an active played PC males, Sholth was my second pick for Kalith's most recent flight. I chose Daidoroth because Sholth is very tiny, but Kalith and him could make babies and they could produce Kings. If you'd like, I can include that possibility on the charts, even though it is very improbable.

I can't say I completely understand everything you're saying here, but this is overall how I see the advantages/disadvantages of enabling full genetic potential in all the male dragons:

+The higher possibility of winning may encourage more players of males to participate in clutching Flights, making those Flights more exciting and rewarding.
+Subqueens and especially m/f clutchers can freely choose dragons that may be more appropriate to their female's size, agility, temperament, etc-- without being concerned as to whether or not they're making Candidates for their Hatchings lose out.
+Subkings gain a function as being both physically able to fly subqueens (and rarely a queen) and not compromising clutch spreads in doing so, which would further distinguish them from fighters. Since fighters can also serve as Wingseconds, subkings are basically just big fighters at the moment.
+Subkings become more viable for being picked as Weyrleaders for plot reasons (hi D'lios) because again, choosing them no longer decreases the shininess of the resulting clutch.
+Not as many NPCs required to give the clutching female a decent selection of males to choose from.

-Kings lose some of their specialness (they are still heavily favored for Wingleader/Weyrleader positions even with this change).
-Scientific accuracy, I guess, which I don't personally find to be my highest priority in Pern games but that some people enjoy and may be less able to embrace Dalicanon without (opinions..?).

[Admin]

Actually, from the staff's current perception of the situation, the reason we don't have a higher number of males pursuing females is due to current activity levels. Maintaining a high activity rate in any color group is hard; we currently have roughly fifteen active King and Sub-Kingriders including the most recent graduates. Hopefully we will be able to arrange soon to introduce more Kings soon (Sub-Kings being open), but right now, we don't have an exceptionally high quantity of either.

There's also the fact we don't encourage the general canon belief that Kings (and then Sub-Kings) have to fly Queens all the time. If a male would fly, that's awesome and it can be great fun, but there's no expectation. Logistically speaking, this also makes sense to at least some degree, as it is impractical to have high numbers of males going gallivanting off after females for even Queen flights.

Most of Dalibor's policies are based off scientific ideas worked into the system present as Pern as well as logistics rather than as an effort to produce shinies; this change could be implemented into that system as best as possible, but I stand by the fact there is no current IC support for it or any support in how the colors were originally designed.

[Chek]

Taking the above into consideration, I am assuming that flitter males have a wider genetic viability than dragons? Since a Gold and a Purple made a Copper in the last major IC clutch, something which would just not happen in dragons according to the charts. It holds the implication that subking flits have all the potential to produce kings and queens when paired with golds and coppers.

Is that right?

[Admin]

Yes, firelizards are more likely to have a wider range of colors produced from any pairing. The genetics and breedings do not perfectly carry over between species due to differences in size, abilities, and origin. Other things to note might be that green whers can produce reds with Kings (because we all know we need more red whers). Green flitters, do to the lack of reds, are limited to browns and below (but they can make lots of rare purple babies in healthy clutches).

[Lan]

So, I'm a bit late to the party, but I just wanted to make one thing clear:

Waroth was caught by Beekth NOT because he was a king. My second choice for her was actually Perbiath and I would have loved to see the brown win. However, since Perbiath lost the dice roll in maiming between himself and Kerath, I could not see Waroth then mating with him after attempting to assassinate him. Also, Waroth would have never let herself be caught by Kerath. She hates purples. They're third on her list of "kill all" (first and second being Couineth and all pinks, respectively).

So, yes. Don't think that just because kings have only been picked so far that they will be the only ones ever picked. I would have loved to pick a sub-king for Waroth, but with one late-comer and the other having lost a random dice roll I didn't really have much variation. If Kerath had been mauled instead of Perbiath, though, Perbiath would have won.

[Boo]

This may be an OMG CONTROVERSIAL!Suggestion

Buuut...

I was thinking about this and thought about a scenario.

Kalith is Flying and Daidoroth Chases but loses to another dragon. If modship and staffing is tied to IC positions it would be a shame in that sense to lose Kila as a mod because Kalith chose someone else. So, perhaps maybe just sort of make it so that IC Leadership is not always tied to staffing or that staffing is not tied as much to IC Leadership. It would also perhaps make more people Chase because the outcome isn't so certain...?

Anyway! Don't hate me but I was just thinking we have a fab staff team and it would be a shame to lose any of em because a dragon chooses someone else.


I'm not sure if this is official but I had assumed it was so because when Kaezeth won Calistath's Flight Reky became a mod... o.o

[Cathaline]

I see what you're say about genetics and such, but I'm confused, then, as to why all of the colors sections have lists of what flies what, and what catches what. Specifically, I was reading over the new pillie information, and I just plain don't understand why browns apparently can't catch ambers, and brasses apparently don't catch greens or pinks.

Leaving aside a potential biological imperative (where high-ranking females would be perhaps more likely to choose high-ranking males because they know those pairings will produce high-ranking specimens to carry on reproduction?), it doesn't really make sense to me to say that generally certain colors will or won't chase/catch/choose certain other colors. Especially when it comes to non-clutching females - what reason is there for a green or pink or cyan not to choose a bronze or iron, especially since we have Dalicanon examples of this happening? In Dalicanon, more often than not flights end based on the female's choice rather than a male catching her outright, so questions of stamina (kings and subkings) or agility (fighters) aren't reflected in what actually happens onscreen. For example, green Gneith was chased by bronze Lebeth and caught by iron Detritath; cyan Eccolath was caught by bronze Shoth; green Eriputh was caught by iron Poseith. The current green dragon info doesn't even state that irons are capable of catching greens at all, despite the fact that it's happened twice so far.

I guess it just seems unnecessarily prescriptive, to me, to say in the information threads that certain colors are more or less likely to catch/chase/choose certain other colors when a) Dalicanon doesn't really bear this out, and b) this thread on genetics seems to indicate otherwise (since Sholth was a serious contender for Kalith's flight). I'm particularly thinking of the current pillie info. "Browns: They catch greens, pinks, and speckles. Ambers: they are typically caught by either a brass or black." For pillies and flits especially, whose sizes are closer together and therefore presumably the stamina/agility factor is lessened, this just bugs me.

What I would suggest: remove all reference to what colors typically chase/catch/choose which other colors. Instead, place a single paragraph somewhere (perhaps at the top of each colors thread?) stating a general policy. Something like this: "In a flight/run, the odds typically favor colors which are closely ranked with other colors. For example, in a queen flight, the greater endurance and strength of kings and subkings will allow them to chase longer where fighters would have to drop out; in a green or pink flight, the female's speed and agility will allow them to be more easily caught by fellow fighters than by larger, more ponderous kings or subkings. All pairings are theoretically viable, but these factors should be taken under consideration, especially in cases where the female is caught outright. When a female specifically chooses her mate, however, personality should be taken into account as well." This would make more sense with what we've seen in Dalicanon to date, and might result in a wider pool of options in each flight since people with dragons of different rank than the female might feel more welcome.

[Admin]

If people are comfortable, the current staff team can be set; all it would officially require me to do is set a group for each individual on the team to tailor their IC rank and accesses.

I would still love to hear more opinions and the flight information could be updated again, but the current information in terms of trends (if you would like to point out an individual one you feel is too specific or note that it's overall too strict in language, that would be wonderful) are largely based on the drastic size difference between large and small dragons. As seen by iron/gray or gold/gray images, there is a major difference. An iron can certainly fly a green, as bronzes are supposed to fly greens in the books, but a brown or a blue is more likely to succeed because the size difference is impractical. It should also be considered that on-cam flights are not realistic representations of the whole of Dalicanon in regards to flights.

[Cathaline]

I like the idea of the staff team being set!

I think my issue is more that, like the recently-removed parts about sexuality Impressions, I feel that the trends in the info are unnecessary and clutter up the info. The info itself is a little harder for me personally to read now that it's all been condensed into a single paragraph per color, and removing what I see as information that could be placed in its own area would help with that.

I see what you're saying with regard to dragons, but I began considering this issue when I read the pillie colors thread. Pillies are so close in size that that particular argument holds no weight, and therefore the "this color typically chooses this color" bit makes me scratch my head. Why do ambers mostly choose brass or black? Why won't speckles chase ambers? Why are blacks favored by greens but not pinks, when green and pink both seem to hold the "fighter" rank and are virtually the same size? Certain of the pillie colors also have no reference to "typically," but seem to state outright, as with browns, what they can catch. I also noted that the section on greens has no reference to what they will typically choose, which is an indication to me that this part is not necessary.

Basically, my argument boils down to this: stating for each color what they typically chase or are caught by is superfluous, cluttering, and unnecessary, especially when it comes to pillies or flits or even whers, for whom the size differences are less important or even negligible. The current info also doesn't state outright why these trends occur (i.e. size differences, stamina vs. agility, or the possibility that, say, speckles don't chase ambers and ambers don't choose speckles because of presumed fertility issues). I believe Dalibor and the info threads would be better served by removing this information from each particular color, and placing a single trends/policies paragraph elsewhere.

[Chek]

I really like the idea of the trends policy being it's own separate thing - to be totally honest, I really liked our old color info format. I understand the change, but personally, I found the old style easier to read.

[Admin]

The size differences are actually reasonably similar; they simply do decrease to a degree in the smaller species (roughly 6% from dragons to firelizards). However, what do you all think of:

1. Highlighting specific phrases in the color information pages in either different shades of the color or some italicized, some bolded, some underlined. That would help to make all of the information clearer.
2. Also adding the paragraph to the clutching charts stating the additional information about why certain pairings are unlikely.

[Cathaline]

There's still only a six-inch difference between green and pink pillies, yet one is apparently caught by blacks commonly, and one isn't. It just doesn't make much sense to me, I guess. :/

I can understand that this information is based on Pernwide trends and statistics, but I still don't think it has a place in the basic info threads where it is, especially since (apart from some really weird oddities like the aforementioned green/pink/black thing which won't make a difference in play anyway) it basically boils down to certain ranks chasing certain other ranks. Listing color after color just makes my eyes glaze over, and it would be so much easier and more helpful to put all of that flight info someplace else, especially since the current system doesn't address the underlying reasons for why certain colors are drawn to certain other colors. I'm not at all in favor of marking some things in color because it wouldn't show up on certain backgrounds, and bold/italics/underlines could help, but they could also be seen as messy. I think it would really just be best to strip out this particular brand of information from the individual colors altogether. Less info = easier to parse = better for all.

[Kestrel]

I know I’m hopelessly late to the conversation, but going back to what Azh was suggesting about giving all male dragons full genetic potential—I think that’s an interesting idea. The only real drawback seems to be possible issues with canon logic, but I think that can be solved. Dragon genetics already don’t fit with any model of real genetics that currently exists, so it doesn’t really make sense on a logical or biological scale already. Why not assume that the variety of colors that can be produced is dependent on the female’s genetics, not the male’s? That way you could still avoid the issues of whites or grays clutching kings, but without the issue of less color variation for clutches fathered by non-king males. Apologies if this has already been resolved and I somehow missed it; this week has me a bit scatterbrained.

[Admin]

Whites can clutch Kings, though grays cannot. The ability of whites to produce Kings is the basis of a large part of Dalibor's history and foundation (as D'bor rode an iron laid by the first female white). The current clutch charts have been developed from current Dalicanon (as information containing similar statistics has been previously released though not in table form).

[Kestrel]

Right, I remember reading that in the history. I was referring more in general to what you had said about the sizes being a stretch here:

I consider it fairly sensible for females to be limited to a degree in what they can produce in order to hopefully favor more eggs (Kings from whites is the largest stretch) to big dragons and, given that there are genetic connections across genders and colors

To solve that, that the colors a female dragon is capable of clutching could be determined solely by the female dragon, so that males of other colors might feel more free to chase. I saw the tables you put up too, but I wasn't sure if that meant this discussion was more or less resolved or if it was ongoing.

[Lan]

Ramblings of an insane Lancat:

1. Poseith caught Eriputh because he was the ONLY ONE CHASING. He's so derptastic, anyone else could have won if they had only posted. >>

2. The genetics make sense. Obviously a smaller father would make for a smaller clutch. It doesn't always work out this way, with random probability and whatnot, but in general that's how it goes. Small mother. Small father. Smaller colors. Whites are genetic rainbows, but other than that something like a yellow clutching is queen is like WTF? Also, if Sholth caught Kalith there is NO way you could expect a bunch of really large dragons from that clutch. It's along the same lines that usually one super short person and another super short person do not a super tall person beget. It sucks, but it's how it goes realistically. Similarly, Waroth is not going to make a Queen, for she is too small. Even if she mates with an iron or bronze it's just not going to happen. It would be weird.

3. The who catches what is just a guideline. Guidelines are good. Sholth is a one-in-a-million blue and we wouldn't love him so much if every other blue was just like him. Also, I agree with the making it less likely for larger colors to fly smaller. It allows the blues and the blacks to get more action.

More coming later. When I am not sleepy.