The Suggestion Box

[Cathaline]

Guidelines are good. My contention is not that these guidelines are unrealistic or shouldn't exist, merely that at the moment, they are misplaced. Where they are now, they clutter up the info pages, they're difficult to read/parse, and most importantly, the reasoning behind them is lost. We might know as longtime members that the reason small dragons catch small dragons is because of agility, and large/large is because of stamina, but sometimes other factors make for less likely pairings, and that's great. But the whole point of the info threads is to help new players and members who might be new to the world of Pern, and the way the info is set up, it's just not effective. Even more importantly, some of the lists as presented have no reasoning that is canon anywhere on the site that I can find. Why do blacks chase green pillies but not pink when their "rank" (fighter) is the same and the size difference is so miniscule? Why do speckles never even try to chase ambers?

As currently presented, the "what chases/is likely to catch" lists are nothing but clutter. They could be more effectively presented in a different way. I am not suggesting here (though maybe others are?) that anything about Dalicanon be changed in anyway - merely reorganised to make it easier to read and understand, not only for those of us who know all this anyway, but for newer players who could get confused. Clarity is good.

[Azhdarchid]

Mar 15, 2012 2:03:57 GMT -5 Lan said:

2. The genetics make sense. Obviously a smaller father would make for a smaller clutch. It doesn't always work out this way, with random probability and whatnot, but in general that's how it goes. Small mother. Small father. Smaller colors. Whites are genetic rainbows, but other than that something like a yellow clutching is queen is like WTF? Also, if Sholth caught Kalith there is NO way you could expect a bunch of really large dragons from that clutch. It's along the same lines that usually one super short person and another super short person do not a super tall person beget. It sucks, but it's how it goes realistically. Similarly, Waroth is not going to make a Queen, for she is too small. Even if she mates with an iron or bronze it's just not going to happen. It would be weird.

The packet of genetic code required to make a bronze isn't going to be very different from the one required to make a blue. It's certainly not going to be some enormous complex molecule that a blue can't possibly carry because of his size- anything a male passes over is going to be microscopic regardless of what colors it's encoding for. (EDIT: Of course if all males are made equal in breeding potential, and the clutch spreads are locked in by the female's color instead, the males may only be providing components needed to "activate" the gametes the female has lying in wait and providing personality/physical differentiation factors within the possibilities for each color-- ex. the reasons why not all Greens have the same level of flirtiness or anxiety, why some Blues are 29' and others 34'.)

No one is arguing for changes to the females' limits, just that the color spreads they can currently achieve only through mating with kings be applicable regardless of what color male they mate with.

EDIT: To support the divorce of IC leadership from OOC modding positions.

[Kestrel]

From an Earth biology standpoint, though, no, the genetics don't make a whole lot of sense. xD In Pern canon, it's essentially always a gold dragon mating with a bronze, right? Even if the species is sexually dimorphic, how do you explain the fact that most of the children they produce are greens and blues? If it worked like earth genetics, you'd just get more golds and bronzes. There really isn't a scientific explanation for why you would get predominantly dragons who do not match their parents in phenotype or genetic make-up.

So you're right--big parents (say, a gold and a bronze) logically should have the ability to make similar large colors, whereas smaller dragons (red and a brown) wouldn't be making queens. But it still doesn't explain why big dragons make mostly small children. Even bee-like genetics don't really explain this, because there are multiple colors of each sex, and queens are born queens, it's not developmental.

At any rate, if you had the color variety of the offspring be determined by the mother's genetic capacity, not the father's, you still would not have yellows or reds or what have you clutching queens, no matter what dragon caught them, because it would not be in their genetic capacity to do so. Given the complexity and the alien nature of dragon genetics (so tempted to play around and try to come up with a workable model now...) as far as I can tell, it's really just as plausible to have the mother's genes determine the color spread of the clutch as it would be to have it be dependent on both genes. Kind of like how in humans it's only the sperm that determines gender (even in oddball cases where the egg has double or no sex chromosomes in it). You could come up with pseudo-scientific logic for either one, really.

Anyway, that's all purely for debate's sake and because I like talking about science. Genetics is fun. Still not saying it would be likely for fighters to catch queens, especially without dying in the process, but if it did happen, some members might be disappointed if the big, long-awaited queen hatching was a clutch of 20 fighters. Don't get me wrong, I love my fighters. But it's nice to have variety, too.

[Admin]

You can't apply Terran genetics to dragons perfectly; I'll fully conceded that point. However, assuming we are working with the triple-helical model they've been proposed to use, what current research suggests is that this could lend them greater potential for controlling proteins in cells and especially within early development (though at this point we can only observed proposed models of triple-helical DNA's use in the development of mutant cells). I cannot fix the required stability dragon's genes are supposed to give them, as no present model makes sense for that degree of stability by sex-based selection (triple-helical or not and triple-helical less so in many ways).

However, in order to create the present diversity within even firelizards, I would propose that is does come down to that control of proteins early in development. I only have so much concrete science to base this off of, so yes, there is pseudo-science involved, but such is the wonders of half-developed astrobiology. Previous information on the site also has dragons broken down into groups with linked genetics, both within classes and then also within color groups to a degree (such as pinks and purples are one set of stock whereas coppers and reds are based out of RAEG). The previous presumption has been that both parents do contribute genetics that have an effect on the resulting offspring based on color and class. Each individual does then have their own genetic structure within the bounds of being highly restricted to the genes necessary to produce the aspects of their color and thus mutations are more likely to produce mutations to a degree depending on heritage. And in relation to that, the metallic quality of the Kings and Queens is supposed to be a reflection on their genetics to a degree, though we limit the shinies making more shinies to simply limiting Queens.

There's also numbers to consider, simply in terms of probability with production. The breeding rights within these groups are supposed to be focused on one or two central individuals who can be easily protected (in order to survive Thread, first based in the firelizard evolution and then in genetic manipulation which is sadly largely unspecified but does strongly point to Ping focusing breeding on golds and bronzes). There is no direct benefit of producing a high number of Queens, because without the appropriate number of fighters to match, they have no chance at survival (which would play into both the evolution and the manipulation). Thus Queens may be prized for being able to produce more Queens, but they also need to have a high chance of producing fighters. Producing a Queen isn't supposed to be easy from the information and statistics we are provided from the books and I personally can't see how dragons can get away with the present model without a great deal of jumbling up going into the production of the embyros from both gametes It thus doesn't make sense for the Queens to solely have what it takes locked somewhere up inside of them; the favoring of fighters and the trick of Queens needs to be locked into members of both sexes. Having the likelihood of a Queen producing a Queen simply dependent on the Queen's eggs isn't a good way to insure a steady, if low, production, because then there should be some possibility the Queen can produce three Queens at once or never a Queen. Most sites also hold that browns overall are bad for Queens to mate with, giving them smaller clutch sizes as well sometimes limiting to browns or below; the Dalibor staff is simply contending based on the model that has been in place, dragon Sub-Kings don't produce Queens as Sub-Queens don't produce Queens (a similar model can be seen at Vaoia and stricter models can be examined on many of the MUs).

With that, we would most likely be willing to change the charts to include viridians producing coppers to an on-chart percentage due to the fact there, firstly, isn't established reference to them breeding to Queens and what occurred IC and, secondly, due to the fact their present bloodline would suggest they produce non-canon colors to a higher degree. Given that Sub-Kings can produce Queens at a very small rate (it is not impossible, just meteor-strike-right-now rare*), the negligible difference would make it a probable change if it would make others feel more comfortable.

On top of all of this, there is the point that making certain females shinier while making all males more equal doesn't fit the model used for the previous three years or is particularly fair to all players without input, so I would like to firmly point out that the discussion is still more than open. The staff currently feels that it should and will take more voices to conclude an issue like this. If someone feels more comfortable messaging or IMing a certain member of the staff with an opinion or comment, please feel more than free to do so.

As a friendly note from the staff, we truthfully do prefer that no one banks on giant Queen clutches as we'd, firstly, love to have more small clutches as weyrlingmastering allows in the future than we have had in the past and we, secondly, never make any promises that clutches will not be entirely full of fighters* as it could happen and we would have plenty of fun writing it for you all (as we would most likely assign ourselves the lovely task).

* We also can't promise we won't one day gift you with over nine thousand yellows. Or at least that two might crop up in a clutch, which is also very unlikely.

[Kestrel]

I've never studied triple-stranded DNA, so I can't speak much for how valid it would be to explain the derpiness of dragon genetics, but since it's all pseudo-science at this point anyway, if that's what we want to use to justify dragon genetics, I don't see a problem with it.

What I don't really understand, though, is where the assumption comes from that this is about producing more queens, or how you drew this conclusion:

It thus doesn't make sense for the Queens to solely have what it takes locked somewhere up inside of them; the favoring of fighters and the trick of Queens needs to be locked into members of both sexes. Having the likelihood of a Queen producing a Queen simply dependent on the Queen's eggs isn't a good way to insure a steady, if low, production, because then there should be some possibility the Queen can produce three Queens at once or never a Queen.

Why is the possibility three or never? That seems like a very punnet-square like model, which I agree would be disastrous if you tried to apply it in this case. But in reality, genetics is much more complicated than punnet squares, and the simple fact that females alone would be responsible for the color spread in no way affects the percentages of colors that would necessarily be possible. There are any myriad number of ways the genetics could work to ensure exactly the percentages of colors to be expected are expected.

Queens could, for example, occur as a result of rare but statistically relevant nondisjunction in the female sex chromosome. For that matter, perhaps both kings and queens result from nondisjuntion, and if the female carries the sex determining chromosome (opposite to humans, but the case for many other species) so that essentially, queens would have a chromosomal makeup of XXX and kings XXY, to put it in human terms (though if you want to get particular, with the females-have-the-sex-determining-chromosome thing, queens would probably be ZZW and males ZZZ). The particular protein structure of the chromosomes themselves could make them privy to nondisjunction at a relatively set percentage, and there could easily be a difference between the structure of the Z and W chromosome that made the queen nondisjunction slightly rarer than that of kinds.

There could also be all kinds of genetic linkage and/or possible nundisjunctions in other chromosomes to pseudo-scientifically explain the rates of other colors. As for having multiple queens, it could be explained as an in-utero thing where two developing queens would simply take up too many resources and thus one usually gets reabsorbed in the blastocyst stage, perhaps due to the stronger queen blastocyst's presence causing some kind of hormone to be released that ensures there will only be one, highlander style, or something like that.

I'm not really throwing that out there as a suggestion of how dragon genetics should work, I just want to demonstrate that genetics are far more complicated than the Mendelian model whether double helix or triple helix, and there is really any number of ways you could justify the color spread regardless of whether males' genes effect color or not. It can be explained with the exact same level of questionably scientific logic in either case.

Now, whether we should have it so that only female dragons affect the color variety of the clutch is an entirely different debate. I just think that in the debate, what we should really be focusing on are the pros and cons about how it will affect the weyr and how we've played out canon so far, not whether or not it can be scientifically justified.

[Admin]

We need more opinions on how people feel it will affect the site, but in terms of canon that has been in place, I can attest from reading four hundred profiles, countless posts, developing clutch spreads with people, and exchanging dragonets in those clutch spreads for other dragonets that the current clutch charts are the established canon. The staff is all in agreement on that fact; there have even been previous posts and threads released showing that Sub-Kings do not produce Queens. The issue then comes down to whether we want to change the established canon (I believe changing viridians might be the best option due to the fact they do not have any IC involvement in flights at this point) or keep it as is based on benefits to the site.

[kitsufox]

I figure I can weigh in on this. and I totally will, because I'm opinionated like that.

It makes no sense to me, from any genetic standpoint, to make the clutch possibilities contingent entirely on the female with no input from the male. That would imply that the male contributes no genetic material (yet due to the dimorphism in the male phenotypes, clearly have distinctions and are not of a single genotype) to the clutch that's being created.

I love the system in which both dragons play a part in the creation of the clutch. It makes (as much) sense (as psudo-science goes) as anything else does. and when you factor in that there's dalicanon-support for the system [which is already in use as far as I can tell, and just being publicly released] I see no reason for major changes. Perhaps small changes that fit within current canon... But I doubt there needs to be more colors capable of producing the metallic finish (heck... The metallic finish just might be recessive and require shiny+shiny to show up).

[Azhdarchid]

Mar 15, 2012 4:39:30 GMT -5 Admin said:

The issue then comes down to whether we want to change the established canon (I believe changing viridians might be the best option due to the fact they do not have any IC involvement in flights at this point) or keep it as is based on benefits to the site.

I had previously listed these benefits/disadvantages to players and the site in changing the established canon:

+The higher possibility of winning may encourage more players of males to participate in clutching Flights, making those Flights more exciting and rewarding.
+Subqueens and especially m/f clutchers can freely choose dragons that may be more appropriate to their female's size, agility, temperament, etc-- without being concerned as to whether or not they're making Candidates for their Hatchings lose out.
+Subkings gain a function as being both physically able to fly subqueens (and rarely a queen) and not compromising clutch spreads in doing so, which would further distinguish them from fighters. Since fighters can also serve as Wingseconds, subkings are basically just big fighters at the moment.
+Subkings become more viable for being picked as Weyrleaders for plot reasons (hi D'lios) because again, choosing them no longer decreases the shininess of the resulting clutch.
+Not as many NPCs required to give the clutching female a decent selection of males to choose from.

-Kings lose some of their specialness (they are still heavily favored for Wingleader/Weyrleader positions even with this change).
-Scientific accuracy, I guess, which I don't personally find to be my highest priority in Pern games but that some people enjoy and may be less able to embrace Dalicanon without (opinions..?

[/b][/size][/quote]

[[EDIT to the above: I'd amend "scientific accuracy" to "canon accuracy." Also note that in DDawn there is a passage indicating Ping programmed Browns to have the exact same breeding potential as Bronzes (scroll down to "It was dark" and read from there), and I'd only ask that Dali extend this a step further and specify all the male colors whereas the book canon leaves it ambiguous.]]

What are the benefits to the site/players of keeping the males unequal in breeding potential?

Again, no one is asking for females to be changed, just that the color spreads presently available only by mating with kings are available by mating with any male, not only for queens but for subqueens and m/f females.

I won't say anymore, but if you (other players) have opinions please do lend them so we can get this resolved.

[Kestrel]

I can't use quotes and fancy formatting stuff due to being on my phone at the moment (oh the joys of waiting for classes to start) but in response to Kitsufox I'd like to say that making color variety determined only by females doesn't mean the male doesn't contribute genetic material. Does the fact that gender in humans is determined only by the male gamete mean that the female does not contribute genetic material?

Both sides have valid reasons why the system should or shouldn't be changed. I just think it's those that should be discussed, not the science aspect, because scientific accuracy really isn't the issue here. More traits are sex-lined than you might think.

[Chek]

I’mma blather about the two major concerns getting kicked around in turn here. I’ll even label them. XD

Concern 1: Dragon Genetics
The way I’m seeing this – People are not asking for more shinies. They want the clutch spread to not effect who gets chosen as a winner in the mating flights.

I’ll build an example based on my understanding of the request.

Say the mods had wanted to have a queen egg (this is simply an example of a rare egg that currently is limited to a specific range of possible parents) in this latest clutch. This is something that is decided long in advance of the Flight, or at least I’d assume so, it being a rather important decision and all that. According to the mating charts, as it stands, if that shinybutt egg had needed to get on the sands, Bre would be obligated to pick a bronze or an iron to win the Flight.

What people want is to make it so, if Bre had really, REALLY wanted Sholth to win, it wouldn’t affect her getting that shinybutt egg out on the sands. Because Sholth would be just as likely as a king to give Kalith the genetic material needed to make that egg (i.e. NOT VERY). Basically they want it so that, especially in cases where the clutch spread might be pre-determined, the player of the clutchmother doesn’t HAVE to choose a certain rank of dragon to win the Flight.

Personally, I think it would encourage people to participate in clutching lady Flights, especially people who would Chase with a lower ranking boy if there was 1. a chance that their boy could win no matter if the clutch spread was pre-determined, and 2. not this fear that they might sabotage anyone’s Candidate’s chances for the widest variety of colors.

Concern 2: “Chased by” stuff
As far as the “typically flown/run by” notes in color info – on dragons, it’s totally legit, even if it feels like something that should be on the clutch spreadsheet page instead, but if it said something like “Blanks are typically flown by Blanks because those dragons tend to have the stamina/agility/speed/moxie to keep up with the female.” Basically including the why of it rather than just stating which colors tend to fly who.

As for the guidelines on flights and runs for the smaller critters – that strikes me as a little odd, really. I mean, statistically, there may be the same percentage of difference in size between say…a pink pillie and a black pillie as there is between a pink dragon and a brown dragon (I am totally just throwing colors out, btw, I don’t actually know if it’s similar, but it doesn’t need to be for this example) but a difference of like, 9 inches is a long, long way from 30 feet. Again, instead of having a size dependent thing for pillies and flits, the reason thing again. Why do Speckles never chase Amber? If it said they never chase because…(making stuff up again) Ambers are violent towards Speckles in Runs, or Speckles instinctively avoid Ambers because they are infertile with them or something rather than just an arbitrary seeming “So and so only Chases so and so,” or “So and so prefers so and so.” Why do whites generally not catch Queen flitters? Something like:“They get squished to paste when she lands on them ( though not as fine a paste as gray dragon vs gold dragon, lol.)” would make me, at least, happy.

It boils down to: We want the why.

[princesal]

The only thing I'm going to offer is one last category on the flight charts. Instead of a blank or a -, possibly a 'highly unlikely' could be used instead. Because I really dislike the idea of something not being possible, because I believe everything is possible, just highly inprobable.

[Admin]

As a note with Kitsufox's input while I'm at school, information on the possibilities for dragon clutches have been previously released publicly and received responses with no issues from a variety of members present here. It is not magical new information; it has simply been formatted to be included to make all of the information more readily available.

Differences in closeness of size and stamina that factor into flights will be added to the color information.

Also, I haven't recently spoken to Knight, but Nia and I agree that we like blues. In terms of picking a PC over a NPC, we would pick one for Callistath or Kalith, but we also agree that a King is going to win over and over again in a flight compared to a blue. The staff also agrees as a whole (Knight input is limited to texts) that blues will not be producing Queens. We don't even believe Kings would be likely, but if we included them on the clutch charts (which we don't believe is necessary because it would be a special situation and we don't want to misinform anyone that it isn't), we would probably go up to Kings.

[Kestrel]

I don't think people were thinking the information about certain pairings being able to make certain colors was anything new (or I didn't, at any rate) it seems it just sort of came up now.

But at any rate. While I like the idea of all the males being genetically equal, I can't say I'm too bothered if fighter rank males can't produce queens. It seems like they would win so infrequently anyhow, and this site doesn't seem to have queen eggs very often, that it wouldn't really be that noticeable. It would be nice, though, if they could indeed go up to kings and all the wonderful sub varieties, for the reasons Azh laid out and as Chek elaborated on.

Essentially so players of lower ranking males wouldn't potentially feel bad if their dragon somehow caught the queen and everyone's candidates impressed fighters as a result. Not to say that any of those candidates' players would necessarily be upset with what they got, but even so, the blue's player still might wonder if people were disappointed by the clutch and feel guilty about it. It just isn't the most encouraging if the goal is to get more people involved in flights.

I don't really have much else to say on the subject, but I am curious what the staff's reasoning is in not letting fighters produce queens, and kings being unlikely, from the sound of things, and why they feel that is the decision that will yield the best results for the site. Purely for the sake of continuity, feeling that it violates too much of your sense of canon/what you want site canon to be, worry that people will be upset if a policy that has existed for so long is suddenly changed, etc? It'd just be nice to get more of a sense of where y'all are coming from. I do really appreciate the transparency this site has in terms of its policies and everything.




As for the other things that have come up in here that I haven't weighed in on yet! (because you all deeply care about my blatherings, I know xD) I'm going to bullet point these like a champion because I've written enough already.

• Pillies - I agree with Cath. Looking at them on the size chart, there really isn't that much difference between some of the colors, so it's hard to see why certain colors couldn't chase some of the ones they aren't listed as being able to chase. Basically like Chek said, it'd just be nice to have more reasoning behind why speckles don't chase ambers when blacks can, and the size difference between speckles and blacks is pretty miniscule.
  
  
• IC/OOC leadership - Also in support of what the others said about having a divide here. As long as mods are being active and helpful in their modly duties (or have plans to return to doing so, if they're being bombarded by life issues for a while) they shouldn't lose their staff position just because their character's dragon loses a flight. I'm not sure if that's really how things would happen here anyway, but I agree that it shouldn't!
  
  
• Totally unrelated to all the discussions going on here, but I was looking through all the lovely pet and wher art in the records and noticed that the 'Whers by Picture' post is all kinds of wonky at the moment. I believe one of the two irons should be labled 'Husk' (currently they're both Bask) and the names do not match up properly with the pictures after the first several. Apologies if you already knew and were working on that.
  

[Boo]

Mar 14, 2012 22:42:36 GMT -5 Admin said:

If people are comfortable, the current staff team can be set; all it would officially require me to do is set a group for each individual on the team to tailor their IC rank and accesses.

I'm all for that! I mean it all just depends on whether everyone is active and everything in the end. Circumstantial and everything ^^

Also WOW this conversation is soooo long and yeah... but I will say this;

Sholth will win a Gold Flight one day!!! and also, 9000 yellows is a must Bre, you know it.

EDIT: In terms of Hearty... She chose Merman based on his size because she wanted someone big to keep her treasure safe. So she's biased and also he tossed Why off the rock so she approved of that. But it was a very close thing for Romeo to be chosen XD[/size]

[Admin]

Essentially so players of lower ranking males wouldn't potentially feel bad if their dragon somehow caught the queen and everyone's candidates impressed fighters as a result. Not to say that any of those candidates' players would necessarily be upset with what they got, but even so, the blue's player still might wonder if people were disappointed by the clutch and feel guilty about it. It just isn't the most encouraging if the goal is to get more people involved in flights.

As a starting point, the staff feels very uncomfortable with this line of reasoning. We are more than happy to handle any discussions of colors resulting from hatchings as we live up to our responsibilities, but we feel it wouldn't be a great asset to the site to have endless worry be shunt onto the clutchmothers and staff for the color spreads. You are going to get clutches full of fighters. There is also the general expectation on the site that this will not result in some great disappointment, even though we do understand lack of yellowage can be sad. If the belief of someone is that we need to have Queens be able to crop up all the time, Dalibor most likely isn't the right site nor do the staff feel comfortable turning it into such a site. We would greatly prefer to try to limit Queens to an appropriate amount based on player base and Weyr size while trying to increase small clutches instead.

I don't really have much else to say on the subject, but I am curious what the staff's reasoning is in not letting fighters produce queens, and kings being unlikely, from the sound of things, and why they feel that is the decision that will yield the best results for the site. Purely for the sake of continuity, feeling that it violates too much of your sense of canon/what you want site canon to be, worry that people will be upset if a policy that has existed for so long is suddenly changed, etc? It'd just be nice to get more of a sense of where y'all are coming from. I do really appreciate the transparency this site has in terms of its policies and everything.

Continuity is definitely an issue. There's only so much wiggle room in regards to things that have already been set or used multiple times in the past. Changing viridians is easy, because them being a more intermediary step between bronzes and browns for dragons can be easily supported; there's no history for them, We can't make it so that there would be any recorded evidence blues can catch Queens or that Queens are more commonly produced in clutches than they are. Site canon is also another issue. We don't feel comfortable changing the current system out of the blue without an overwhelming need; more small males flying Queens to win is not a need nor even necessarily helpful for the site.

The staff also tends to come from a numbers and probabilities standpoint in an effort to be more fair. It might not be all rainbows and butterflies (and yellows), but in the long run, it tends to be more stable and easier for us to work across the site as a whole.

I am going to be tweaking the clutching charts for dragons to include more information tonight; their color information will be updated late. Pillies will be clarified to say that blacks and brasses are more likely for ambers but speckles and blues can certainly chase and have a viable chance at winning (I'm presuming there is no issue with the fact browns would be more like cannon fodder than contenders against an amber); however, that most likely won't happen until at least tomorrow. The wher images have been fixed to work across browsers.

[Boo]

Pillies will be clarified to say that blacks and brasses are more likely for ambers but speckles and blues can certainly chase and have a viable chance at winning (I'm presuming there is no issue with the fact browns would be more like cannon fodder than contenders against an amber); however, that most likely won't happen until at least tomorrow. The wher images have been fixed to work across browsers.

[/quote]

Yes Moose and Why = Cannon fodder for Hearty. She shall shoot them into all the ships and pillage the treasure ARRRRR!!

[kitsufox]

I don't see a reason to change the -- to "extremely unlikely". I actually directly asked Bre what her "--" means, and the answer (though this is not a direct quote) was akin to "A statistically insignificant possibility". So from what I understand of that... If the staff needed to drop a queen (for some reason that I can't think would ever exist, unless something happened to the healthy population of breeders who could throw them) into a clutch, they simply could. It would be a rare occurrence, but seems to be perfectly possible... if statically unlikely to happen.

[Admin]

Clutch charts for dragons have been tweaked and victor statistics have been added with a note. More specifics about stamina and size will be added to the colors if people feel comfortable with the presented statistics (guess what - yellows don't catch reds that often, shocker, I know).

[Kestrel]

As a starting point, the staff feels very uncomfortable with this line of reasoning. We are more than happy to handle any discussions of colors resulting from hatchings as we live up to our responsibilities, but we feel it wouldn't be a great asset to the site to have endless worry be shunt onto the clutchmothers and staff for the color spreads. You are going to get clutches full of fighters. There is also the general expectation on the site that this will not result in some great disappointment, even though we do understand lack of yellowage can be sad. If the belief of someone is that we need to have Queens be able to crop up all the time, Dalibor most likely isn't the right site nor do the staff feel comfortable turning it into such a site. We would greatly prefer to try to limit Queens to an appropriate amount based on player base and Weyr size while trying to increase small clutches instead.

I'm not the first one to point out that line of reasoning in this thread, nor am I saying that I personally would feel that way, but I'll go on being devil's advocate. On Pern sites everyone likes to pretend that no one cares about color and everyone will be happy with everything, and for many members, that's true. Of course, you're going to get the members who want a queen egg in every clutch and who will be disappointed if they get anything less, and you can't please them.

You mention queens and the expectation of queens coming up here quite a lot, but I'm not really talking about queens. I'm perfectly fine with queens being a rare occurrence. What I'm more interested in is not queens, or kings, or ranks at all, but variety.

This is my first site with non-canon colors, and I had generally assumed that non-canon colors largely existed to add variety to what players could hope to find their characters impressed to, and to create more of a buffer between the rarer shinies and the greens and blues that canonically would have to make up 80% of the weyr.

To some extent, Dalibor does that. But to be honest, I do have to scratch my head a little at the way the percentages were worked out.

There are currently 18 colors of dragons at Dalibor. Of these, 5 colors are fighters and 13 are all 'rarer' varieties whose percent of the population totals 10% or less. What this means is that 21% of dragons holds 72% of the color variety. Most people here aren't shiny hunters, but a lot do express that they would rather have their characters impress dragon colors they don't already have when possible. It's hard not to feel that way--Dalibor has so many varied and wonderful colors of dragons that it's hard not to fall in love with them all. And while of course no one could play them all, I can see why people could be disappointed if they only ever got to play the five fighter colors (only 3/5 of which are mutations, compared to 10/13 (counting white) for non-fighters).

I'm not saying we need to overhaul the whole system or anything crazy like that, just explaining where I'm coming from with the theory that people being disappointed with a clutch of all fighters (and by this I'm assuming we mean an actual queen clutch of all fighters, since obviously sub-queens and m/f dragons, with their clutches under 10 or so, would logically have all-fighter clutches more often than not and that makes perfect sense) might not all be evil queenhunters. If you're planning on bringing in a new male fighter mutation, like you've said, that'll help pull things into a bit better equilibrium, too.


Anyway, I definitely understand the issues that would be raised with continuity, which would seem to be the biggest obstacle. And yay, the wher thread now works fantastically (for those whers who've been put into the new formatting, anyway) so maybe I'll go back to staring at lovely arts now.

[Lan]

SPOILER: Click to show

|| EDIT: Written before Kestrel's above post. Her arguments are not taken into account.

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Dude. Dude. Dude. What?

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First of all, since Cath has been so patient and lovely, I will address her concerns. I agree with her about wanting the why about certain pairings. I think it would be super-awesome and interesting to have that information printed in some form. If Bre said something about including that in one of those TL;DR statements, I'm really excited to read it!

I also agree with Chek and Cath about pillies and firelizards. Dragons is understandable, for their sizes differ much more dramatically, but I think at the very least with pillies and firelizards there should be a little more leniency or blurring of the lines. Otherwise, information should be given. The Lancat hath spoken.

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Oh, dear god. I really don't want to open up this genetic can of worms, but LET'S DO THIS.

Argument 1: "We should make all males equally viable, while not changing the viability of the female."

Since you have all decided to NOT be scientific about this, you leave me no choice but to say: "Umm... okay... what?" Rejecting all scientific justification (which is hard for my physicist nature, but okay), I am left to wonder what the humanitarian purposes are for this venture.

If you're going to make the males unlimited, why still limit the females? Seems a bit biased to me. "Males are ALL POWERFUL... but females must know their place"? I'm not a feminist at all, but this stinks of inequality. Weyrs are matriarchal societies. The males who are in leading positions were chosen by the females at the top--or at the very least proved themselves worthy. If all males are equally viable as far as genetics goes (which is weird to talk about from a humanitarian standpoint), this means that this whole process gets by-passed. It's effectively reverse discrimination. Males don't have to stand by hierarchy, but females do. Simply because, well, they're female. Does that seem right to you?

Argument 2: "Players whose lower-ranking males catch clutching females will feel bad about producing an all-fighter clutch."

There are a couple of things wrong with this line of thinking. One: if a blue won a queen flight he should be DAMN PROUD of himself just as a matter of principle. In a matter of speaking that is hopefully not too scientific for you: he proved himself strong enough to father a clutch and so he shall. That doesn't mean he should produce larger dragons, though. He's still small. Small is a qualitative term, so I hope you'll excuse me rehashing the argument of small things do not beget very big things. But I digress: the main point is that the player should feel PROUD to have taken part in something that happens so rarely there is no precedent for it... and for that alone.

Second, what's wrong with an all-fighter clutch? There is nothing inherently wrong with fighters. I know that this is not the point you're trying to make, but still... it certainly SEEMS like there's something of that nature behind this comment. If there is: What the crap? If there isn't: Still, what the crap?

Either way, I think it's time for a Dali History lesson:

Take Sub-Queens.

7 Sub-Queens have flown since Dali's start.

2 of those Sub-Queens have failed to produce viable eggs:
---> Red Waroth, caught by Iron Kaezeth.
---> Red Izkeeyerdath, caught by Brown Ansyth.

5 of those Sub-Queens have produced viable eggs:
---> Orange Alizadehth, caught by Brown Abeneth
---> Orange Nikianeth, caught by Brown Duareth
---> Orange Vhreth, caught by Iron Sjueth
---> Tan Naireth, caught by Iron Poseith
---> Red Waroth, caught by Bronze Beekth

Waroth results are not publicly known yet, so we'll throw them out, but we can add the following hatching spreads:
---> Orange Alizadehth, caught by Brown Abeneth
--------------------> 1 non-fighter, 6 fighters
---> Orange Nikianeth, caught by Brown Duareth
--------------------> 1 non-fighter, 2 fighters
---> Orange Vhreth, caught by Iron Sjueth
--------------------> 1 fighter
---> Tan Naireth, caught by Iron Poseith
--------------------> 2 non-fighters, 4 fighters

Notice a trend? I do...

Out of the TRADITIONAL (excluding Tan) colors that have flown to be caught by thou Lordly Kings, NONE OF THEM HAVE PRODUCED ANYTHING BUT FIGHTER COLORS OR NOTHING AT ALL.

Those that were caught by Sub-Kings, meanwhile, have produced 2 non-fighters. Tan Naireth, I move, is like Viridians in that she is shiny and special and perhaps is more capable of producing larger colors than her Orange and Red sisters.

The conclusion: It seems Sub-Kings are more virile than Kings when it comes to Sub-Queens in Dali History. Also, Sub-Kings not being able to fly Sub-Queens does NOT seem to be a problem.

Furthermore, I believe there may be a trend with the flights who picked Kings having a majority of Kings to choose from. Red Waroth had only 2 iron suitors her first go--no one else chased. This was not the case for her second Flight, but I have already explained my reasoning there. Orange Vhreth had two iron suitors and one purple suitor.

I would furthermore like to point out that rarer colors have been produced more often by Gray Noyth than by any other non-queen female... And she mated with Blue Ripariath.

My final conclusion: The problem of not having "enough" sub-kings chosen in possibly-clutching Flights is that there aren't enough active sub-kings that POST in those Flights most of the time when that happens... and there seem to be no foundation for it, as Kings seem to either produce no viable eggs or only fighters anyway. =/

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I have further arguments, but I'm tired of typing. -_-

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|| EDIT EDIT: (after reading Kestrel's arguments, which were highly enlightening) I would honestly love the addition of another male fighter color, and I understand what you mean by the seeming lack of variety. More variety of colors out there would be super awesome. However, of the color varieties that HAVE gotten out there, most of them have had their players disappear out into the wilderness. Which is not cool. =(

FURTHERMORE: I would like to apologize for a particular wording that was brought to my attention... by the whole "let's NOT talk about science" thing I had thought I had read something along the lines of someone wanting to move the conversation away from science.

And for the other things I have said that have insulted people: Perhaps, if it wasn't clear, my words were part in parody to bring about the sense of the ridiculousness. That, and Lan is grumpy for reasons she will decline to state. As such, the above is now put in spoiler tags so as not to offend further readers. I have changed none of the original wording.

NEW CONCLUSION: If more variety should happen in the future we need to get our numbers back down. With the high level of inactivity in higher ranking colors, I now move that we have a mass activity check so that those colors that have done nothing for some time can be eliminated so new ones can be born from the newly balanced pot of statistics.

[Cathaline]

If more variety should happen in the future we need to get our numbers back down. With the high level of inactivity in higher ranking colors, I now move that we have a mass activity check so that those colors that have done nothing for some time can be eliminated so new ones can be born from the newly balanced pot of statistics.

I absolutely agree. At this point an activity check is a necessity.

I also want to advance the suggestion that an addition to activity check policy is necessary. While it is lovely that all people have to do is show up once every six months or more in order to keep everything they have, it is is occasionally frustrating as well. We have characters on this site (only a couple, but the fact that they exist at all is irksome to me personally) who have not been played since 2010. We have one person who hasn't done anything but show up to activity checks since mid-2010. We also have people holding down important IC positions right now who log in, but never play.

I would propose the following:

1. Someone who basically logs in only for activity checks should be removed. They are not contributing to the site. I am not sure exactly how this would be determined; my instinct is to say that if someone posts in two activity checks in a row with no IC posts (or hiatus posts) in between, they should be removed. 6+ months is a long, long time, and in this day and age, most people can, if they have to, obtain computer access. This doesn't mean that a person will necessarily be able to pound out a 200-word tag, which is why a hiatus notice will also suffice. I'm also a bit wary of people who might, say, post once immediately following an activity check (within the next handful of days, say), but then not show up until the next check, bypassing the rule without actually being active in a meaningful way.

2. Likewise, some sort of activity standard should be in place for IC leadership of any kind (Candidatemaster, Weyrlingmaster, Wingleader, Wingsecond, Weyrleader, Weyrwoman, Headwoman, etc). Again, hiatuses do not count against people - we all understand that our beloved Knight is busy right now, and that happens! Life is more important. However, it is extremely detrimental to the site and frustrating to active players who do not have IC rank to see those members completely disappear for month after month, and not even play those characters when they are around.

Let me be clear: I am NOT talking about taking characters away from anyone without their consent, except in the obvious case where they are being removed entirely from the game. I am merely talking about leadership roles. While it might be sad to think that a lot of ranking colors are played by people who are not active, at the end of the day, fighters are awesome too and we should all be happy to play our characters no matter what.

The objection I expect to hear is that it is ICly unfair to demote someone over their player's absence. However, when we're talking about an absence that is detrimental to a large number of players (disappearing Weyrlingmasters or Candidatemasters) or which is beginning to take a toll on the site (possibility that disappearing Wingleaders/Wingseconds is the reason we don't get more Threadfall roleplay?), that needs to be weighed against a character's perceived "right" to their position. My proposal is this:

a) standards are placed and enforced for a variety of IC leadership positions - these standards being more than the typical "just raise your hand" activity check. Whether this is having to have an IC post related to that leadership position within the activity check period, enforced lessons for WMs/CMs, or whatever, I am interested in hearing other people's thoughts! I certainly don't want having IC leadership to turn into a chore for anyone, but claiming such a position and then vanishing for months is honestly, to me, in a majority of cases, just shinyhunting. Having, say, a Headwoman like Chek now does while being unavailable to play and plot with them for months on end would not be cool.

b) In the event that a character is demoted from their position, fluid time allows this to be quietly glossed over. Let's use my own character as an example. Someday far into the future, Kalenna is alphahandler - but then Cath vanishes into the night! What to do? There are wher plots that need to happen, wherlings to be overseen! What happens is, an announcement is posted that Kalenna has been demoted to betahandler and Audren has been promoted back to alphahandler in her place. Squeezing a whole season's worth of time into a single month means that no one should have to discuss this in depth IC. Some time later, when Cath appears, there is no set canon for this except that the demotion happened, and I am free to create my own. Did Kalenna pull a Ridan? Did someone she knows back home become fatally ill, and she was forced, like L'ven, to go care for them for awhile? Did she have a nervous breakdown from stress? It would be up to me. Depending on the route I went, it could be simple to reclaim my former IC rank once I was capable of keeping it active, or it could be near impossible, but it would be up to me in the end. And of course, if the player never returns, either the character will go up for adoption and this will be decided by their next player, or the character will be transferred or killed and staff can retroactively make up their own reason for the events. It might not be the most convenient thing in the world, but it's fair to everybody. Depending on the situation, IC rumors and such can then be backdated or assumed to have happened all along, simply not being part of the threads that were played out within that time period. Based on how little time we actually spend with our characters overall, this should not be a hardship for anyone but the most hardened gossips :P

c) To reiterate one point: IC positions can ALWAYS, within reason, be reclaimed if they are lost due to inactivity. It may take time so as not to screw over the replacement character, but it can and often will happen. This is not about punishing anyone for inactivity, much less punishing their characters; it is about KEEPING POSITIONS ACTIVE for the benefit of the site and all the players on it. To that end, my third addendum is that adoptable characters should be removed from their IC position either immediately, or if they remain unadopted after one activity cycle from check to check. People who later adopt these characters should have similar options for choosing the character's history (although perhaps less options) and for reclaiming a position the character once held, although I would personally consider that a bit less of a priority.

[larkwing]

*raises hand* I wanted to make a suggestion that doesn't have to do with all of the dragon/wher/firelizard/pillie talk. I was wondering for all the newbies *and old timers...>.>* that might need it/could use it, have a Glossary in the Library Board about all the different terms in Pern; especially those ones that are Dalibor created. I think this would help clear up something things *like Aika and I earlier were discussing how big was a dragonlength* but also help members that are new to DRoP in general or need to refresh their brains.

[Azhdarchid]

O-kay.

I don't see the benefit to the players in keeping the males the way they are as opposed to equalizing their breeding potential, and I would still argue against some of the reasoning used to conserve the system as it exists presently. No, I don't find all-fighter clutches from queens very enticing compared to clutches with the usual bells and whistles (see Kestrel's most recent post).

However, I made this suggestion because I thought it would increase the fun factor of the game. If it's such a divisive idea that it's upsetting people in this manner, then I am not going to pursue it further. It's not worth this level of polarization and upset in the playing population. The statements in the above paragraph are in order to be completely honest, not as additional challenge to the status quo.

Also thank you again Kestrel for shining a light on some of the logistics that make Pern games very tricky in terms of desiring color variety, shinies, and whathaveyou.

An activity check is the golden fleece, but Cath's suggestions on improving the check to preserve IC leaders who are active also deserve serious consideration. I don't know if Wingseconds need to be included (an active Wingleader can prune Wingseconds personally, and there could be some sort of system put in place for wingrider-players to lodge complaints if a Wingleader is just keeping their buddy in a Wingsecond spot despite said buddy not being active or something-- please only worry about this after the bulk of the suggestions regarding the check have been evaluated).

[Boo]

We should have a wild pillie find!

[Admin]

So we're looking for additional activity rules for: wingleaders, weyrlingmasters, candidatemasters, Weyrwomen, Weyrleaders, the alphahandler, prideleaders, and the headwoman? I would consider adding in the Lord and Lady Holders, but they simply do not have as much plot involvement as the other parties, so I would not view it as fair to expect them to constantly be able to produce task-related threads. Trying to organize this to work will be a big production (because wingleaders switching every few months will not be more conducive to the site), but some thoughts:

1. Activity checks will most likely not be more frequent (twice a year) and will be the same for all other characters. People get to keep their wingriders as they wish, so long as they post or have a LOA up.
2. There would be no way to insure a character would return to their previous position following an absence. IC rank changes are final within reason and imaginary-future-Kalenna doesn't get to take imaginary-future-Audren's spot simply because she once filled that position.
3. The players of these positions would most likely simply be asked to send the staff two links to threads related to their character's job every two months. We'd have a checklist and you'd either do that or be on an extended LOA to have that period checked off. Anything more than that is not going to be manageable.
4. If this system goes into play, characters who are abandoned in an actual activity check who hold rank will most likely be shown off to try for adoption within the first month. This will be especially true for older riders, simply due to the fact we always need more older riders around being old.
5. This system would not go into play until after the upcoming hatching when an activity check and the ensuing clean up could be completed. Nothing will change between now and that point.

EDIT: Following the activity check, we will also be introducing casualty lists twice a month; this has been somewhat in planning for a while now.