The Suggestion Box

[Cathaline]

All of that sounds good to me!

[Nia]

Alright, I'm not going to touch on the other issue but there is something I'd like to mention about the activity checks.

I don't think two posts a month should be required for the characters in that position. I think it's alright for the person in charge of those characters to make two posts a month with any character at all, but just think about it. It would get extremely dull to have to RP, say, a Weyrwoman filling out paperwork or doing patrol rounds or diplomatic visits twice a month. It's not really fair to those people who have high rankers either, and it starts to make having a rank a chore.

This is kind of an issue! No one will want to even have a Wingleader position if stuff like posting two times a month is required. And think, would you want to be forced to post in a wing training thread twice a month? It's not the kind of thing you can really RP efficiently because there's no way to make it interesting. It's just routine, so things like that, unless someone has a particularly interesting idea, are usually just assumed to happen and not played out. You might think it could be interesting and fun the first time, sure. But then again... and again... and again.... It gets really boring.

The only characters I think should post once a month (note: once, not twice) should be Weyrlingmasters and Candidatemasters, simply because those two jobs are extremely important to the players and character development. It helps Weyrlings and Candidates interact and meet each other, as well as in-canon training. Also, most Weyrling and Candidate lessons are interesting! There is a lot to do and think up to make a lesson interesting.

Anyway, I agree with being less lenient on people with rankers, but putting such strict activity checks on them is unfair to the players. Posting twice a month in general is no big deal, but once it gets to having to post twice a month for a particular character it gets too much.

Also, roleplaying is not a one-way street. Most people don't really want to just RP "doing paperwork" with someone else and hell, half the Weyrlings and Candidates don't even post in the lessons! It's a bit difficult to teach people who aren't even going to show up.

I'm rambling a bit and I don't mean to make this a big deal, but you have to think more about what makes an RP fun and what makes it become a chore.

EDIT: I got my numbers mixed up but two posts every two months is still a lot to do if you are forced to do it! It's hard to think up interesting things. And my point about people actually REPLYING in the first place still stands.

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[Admin]

Nia knows that it would actually be two posts every two months. She just can't read numbers. (HI NIA. *flees*) EDIT: Darn. She beat me editing.

[Nia]

Same thiiiinnnggggggg!!!! It's being forced to do something! Activity in general is good but having to use a particular character is difficult especially if you lose muse for them!

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[Cathaline]

That's not how I read it at all, Nia. First, Bre said every two months. Personally I have no problem with it being extended to three, or to "per IC turn," or even per activity check period. Second, I parsed "two links to threads" as simply being two links to still-active threads within that period, not necessarily having to start two new threads, just to keep them going. (We have had a problem in the past with people starting leadershippy threads and failing to ever respond to them again, I have noticed while trawling the archives.)

There's also more to these positions than filling out paperwork. Wingleaders, for example, could post drills (which we have had in the past) or Threadfall roleplays. They could visit injured wingriders, or mourn their dead once we have some more casualties. Depending on how lenient the standards for "RPing as a wingleader" were, they could also simply meet people. They could roleplay with weyrlings to evaluate them as potential future wingriders. They could fight with their wingseconds and consider replacing them. If people actually played their wingleaders, there are a thousand and one different plot ideas they could come up with that amount to a lot more than "doing paperwork," and which could create interesting plot and conflict not just for themselves, but for their whole wing or the Weyr as a whole.

As it is, there is absolutely zero incentive for the players of wingleaders to play them. Zero. And that hurts everyone on the site. It hurts everyone in their wings, it hurts their wingseconds, and it hurts all of us as players. We have two wingleaders right now who are adoptable or technically-adoptable, M'lock and L'ven, and as a result, those two wings and everyone in them are severely hampered in any Thread-related roleplay. We have a ton of inactive wingseconds - which I expect will change after the activity check - and the result of that is that, potentially now and potentially in the future, active players with suitable characters who would love to have those positions are completely shut out of getting them, because players are allowed to sit on them indefinitely. They not only don't have to play their character in that position, they don't have to play their character at all. (Also, re: L'ven, he is technically adoptable because I know Show is reclaiming him; however, she didn't officially do so, and I have to admit, glancing at the wings list, I'm wondering why he's listed as a wingleader at all when ICly he's just transferred back from dealing with family issues. This is the kind of problem we're facing if we leave wingleaders out of activity check rules.)

I'm sorry if I come off as a bit snappish here, but I truly think that not having active wingleaders, wingseconds, and people in ALL IC positions, not just Candidatemasters and Weyrlingmasters, is hurting the site. Thread has been falling OOCly since October and ICly for almost a turn now, and we've seen hardly any plot to do with it barring first Fall and one recently-deceased new graduate. It gets talked about, but hardly played with. It shouldn't have to be up to the mods, who are busy people and do a lot for the site, to push this kind of roleplay. Any wingleader could easily organise small events for their wing, or just give their wingriders a chance to even meet them, at this stage. It is really, really hard to get excited about things like Thread finally falling when everyone in a significant leadership position is basically inactive.

You say roleplaying should not be a chore, and I agree, it should not. However, that's a two-way street. If you take on IC responsibility, you have to be responsible. You have to be reliable. If you can't be, the right thing to do is to give up the position. If I were to suddenly stop playing Kalenna, people would be furious with me, and they would be more than in the right! Roleplaying isn't a chore, but leadership is, and people who are not prepared to accept that should not maintain leadership roles that could go to players who would be more than happy to fill them.

[Chek]

I think there is a solution to this - paperwork is not the limit to a ranking character's duties. I thiiink... we should make lists. Lists of all the duties a ranking character has, because I bet there is going to be quite a few things on that list that would make 12 threads a year not all that hard to do, especially considering how many active and eager people we have floating around ready to write replies. For example - Bre just had Fajra talk to Q'sis - that is doing her duties. It would count. It isn't paperwork, or a drill, or a diplomatic visit. Same with W'al - Delilah brought him an issue, and he is acting as a Weyrlingmaster in that thread.

I worry about not being to take a particular character and write have two threads for them over two months, especially since it it is only certain characters, not ALL characters. I mean - I haven't played Yiserah much, but if I needed to, two threads every 60 days isn't much of a trial. Having a character that is inactive IC for effectively a quarter to half an IC year at a time is kinda "eeeh" to me when they hold a rank. I don't think it's fair to the crazy folks who could keep like, a Wingleader active and engaged with his/her wing during that same period.


(I am assuming that it's not a strict one per month thing - you could have two threads within a few days, and be set for that two month period, or have an active thread that lasts three months and has that count for two periods.)

EDIT: For the record, as I now hold the Headwoman position, I am fully willing and able to provide two threads with Isildrasil doing her duties every two months. Since I don't see it as a chore, but rather reason and motivation to keep her active, as she should be.

[Azhdarchid]

Weyrwomen would be hard to include in this since they can't be demoted, and they get their rank automatically (i.e. they don't get an option to turn it down). So it probably wouldn't matter for them? Weyrleaders could also be pruned by mating Flights, but that puts constraints on who queenriders can choose, which is something I am not very keen on (EDIT: Though if the WL is so inactive he's not participating in the Flight he's going to get auto-pruned anyway...duh me.).

CMs, WMs, Wingleaders should probably be the main focus... ? And the Alphahandler since she doubles as the whers' "WM."

[Admin]

From personal experience on other sites, I can attest that we're most likely never going to get some intense continuous Thread action. People will kill and seriously injure their riders at their discretion, so Threadfall RPs do tend to get repetitive.

The only major concern I have is that we won't necessarily have enough people for the positions, but we can see after the activity check. The main issue separating people who have the time to play ranks and the ranks themselves are appropriate characters in terms of rank and experience. It takes a minimum of half a year for a player who makes strictly candidates (which is common enough) to have a character who would be even close to possibly ready to appoint to a leadership position - and that's presuming they're a character at all designed to be anywhere near those roles.

I also believe Nia's point that people with IC positions don't always have all the people they need is fair. Most people don't spend all their time RPing wing duties nor do they have an interest in it (or a consistent interest to my experience). It is not like wingleaders have been excluded from current activity check rules; we've just always been tolerant of RL getting in the way.

EDIT: Limiting it to wingleaders, 'masters, and the alphahandler might also make sense as Weyrleaders and Weyrwomen typically double as a wingleader (or wingsecond).

[Cathaline]

Agree with Azzy. I erred in including Weyrwomen/Weyrleaders in my initial post, because obviously by canon they cannot be demoted. All one could do is declare a standing Weyrleader ineligible to win the next flight if they aren't active, but like Azzy, I'm not really comfortable with that. The ladies should choose who the ladies want to choose XD

The fact that the MAJOR Weyr leadership is exempt from this, however, is to me all the more reason to make sure the wingleaders are active :/

EDIT:

The only major concern I have is that we won't necessarily have enough people for the positions, but we can see after the activity check. The main issue separating people who have the time to play ranks and the ranks themselves are appropriate characters in terms of rank and experience. It takes a minimum of half a year for a player who makes strictly candidates (which is common enough) to have a character who would be even close to possibly ready to appoint to a leadership position - and that's presuming they're a character at all designed to be anywhere near those roles.

I also believe Nia's point that people with IC positions don't always have all the people they need is fair. Most people don't spend all their time RPing wing duties nor do they have an interest in it (or a consistent interest to my experience).

I completely understand these concerns, but I still think it is something which should at the very least be attempted. Knowing their position depends on being active might in itself be an incentive to players to remain active. Depending on how the activity check goes, we may be due for another king transfer, and this time the players offering those kings would be doing so in full knowledge of the requirements of a presumptive wingleader position. Then, too, there's the fact that time marches on. Maybe right now, say, we have barely enough active kings to cover the wingleader positions - that's worrisome. But what happens a year from now when a couple of active kingriders (who, we shall assume, are suited for leadership) have graduated weyrlinghood and gained experience? They're stuck until the next activity check...maybe, assuming a position actually opens up and doesn't just go adoptable. So you would have the active kings to cover the positions, but they would be unable to take them. That doesn't seem at all fair, and like I've outlined, it's detrimental to everyone, not only to the people who might want those positions for themselves. (Keep in mind I'm saying this as someone who doesn't have a king, and my viridianrider...needs work. At best XD)

As I said and Chek suggested, there are plenty of things a wingleader could do that would "count" as a wingleader's duties. It doesn't have to be strict; it can be at the staff's discretion. A person doesn't have to consistently post wing drills or consistently do paperwork in a public area and wait to be approached in order to play their wingleader.

[Nia]

I do agree that the leadership-y threads MUST be kept active. Things like Candidate training and Weyrling training tend to fade out because people stop replying, especially the leaders. But to play devil's advocate once again, it is very difficult to think up ways to make something interesting rather than routine. And if you don't have any ideas it can be a chore and a pain. Everyone gets writers block and sometimes it gets a bit more difficult to write certain characters. It happens. But I think if you start a leadership/training thread you must be able to finish it or there should be some consequences.

But it shouldn't be entirely up to the wingleader, either. If a couple people in their wing want to do a thread, they should take the initiative and ask their wingleader to make one. The group can bounce around ideas and work on it as a group, rather than pushing all the responsibility on one person. Like you and I said, it's a two-way street. Putting all that stress on someone is definitely not an incentive to roleplaying a wingleader.

We do need more active people in wingleader/weyrlingmaster/wingsecond positions, so the current list absolutely needs to be rearranged.

Also, wings could be rearranged so the inactives could all be put in one, and the people who remain active stay in another. That way we don't have to prune people who disappear and then come back, but they won't be hurting anyone else. This is a bit wonky and would require a bit of shifting around, but it would be a temporary solution to the problem.

EDIT: I agree with Azzy, yeah. That's not really something that can be controlled, and I've mostly focused on WMs, CMs, WLs, etc.

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[Cathaline]

I think there are enough things that would fall under a wingleader's duties (I'm focusing on wingleaders because from what I can see, no one is arguing that CMs and WMs shouldn't be exempt from these rules) that it should never become routine, especially if we were to a) lengthen the period in question to three OOC months or one IC turn, and b) allow threads to be counted across multiple periods as long as they remain active. If nothing else, we constantly have new weyrling classes coming in and growing up. I see little reason that a wingleader could not ask an active weyrling or two to thread, in order to have the wingleader evaluate them. Depending on the clash of personalities, it could quickly turn away from mere duty and into something awesome.

And you're right, it is a two-way street. If this were to become a thing on the site, I would certainly hope that active players would approach wingleaders for plot and threads. The wingleader themselves should never have to be the only one coming up with plot. Their wingseconds, their wingriders, the weyrlings, everybody could and should be a part of this.

Stress sucks, and I think there is an element to this that could be left to the staff's discretion. It would be up to them whether a thread "counts" as a wingleader going about their duties, however tangential it may appear. Players could potentially contact staff about writer's block or serious RL issues, and be granted a reprieve - though if they were doing this consistently, they might be asked to step down regardless. Another potential that could be taken into consideration is if this person was trying to keep threads active, and just happened to be playing against people who never tagged back - that wouldn't be their fault at all. I don't think it should at all be a case of "YOU FAILED AND YOU ARE OUT FOREVER RAR" if the player is able to present a decent reason why they did not meet the requirements, and if they are not failing to meet those requirements on a regular basis. Transparency would be nice to a certain extent, however, to avoid possible accusations of favoritism, which no one ever likes.

I like the idea of an "inactive" wing in theory! The only problem I see is that if this wing is mainly comprised of adoptables, then when they're adopted, they're either stuck in inactiveland or there has to be a reason to transfer them to another wing, and right now people don't seem to switch wings very often. It would also be super awkward if the wingleader themself was adopted :P It would be kiiind of hard, I think, to keep a wingleader active if the whole point of their wing is that they can't interact with it...

[Nia]

Well, I think if we did the wings like that we would have to make the wingleader an unadoptable NPC, which is fine to have a single one to make canon sense. Haha, this is also why I said it'd be mostly a temporary solution, or we'd have to make up excuses to have people constantly switch wings. We cOULD just give it a retcon and have them be there all along, but that tends to muddle up the canon a bit.

I don't think there's any need to argue, WLs should get the same kind of treatment that CMs and WMs currently get, as in they need to keep up with their wing and make posts with them.

And yes, I do understand that sometimes people just don't tag back! That happens as well, but it should just be understood that people need to try and keep their threads active until the end. Not tagging back is just kind of a thing that you can't really help, honestly. It will happen and there's no real way to stop it other than hoping people will stay commited and active.

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[kitsufox]

On the subject of the "Inactive Wing" idea: Maybe make it a "Recovery" wing and score them lightly or something (not bad, maybe even just lace the dragon [which should be a common enough injury anyways]). So that they need to be pulled from the "Active" wings and then can be considered to be working low-flying while they're healed enough and what have you. With Dali's fluid time deal, if one got adopted it would be easy enough for them (or their dragon) to be declared fit for the higher flights and transferred out.

In short: With thread falling, we do have excuses enough to have pairs moving about. Assuming we do something we don't see in the books (which Dalibor does when it suits anyways) and have a wing that riders and dragons who can't fly, or can't fly well enough for the upper work, move to while they're in recovery.

[Admin]

Riders in recovery fly with the Queen's wing. If a dragon or rider can't fly at all, they can't fly at all, but they'd probably be maintained as a wingrider in their wing. Wings are meant to have flexibility down to a third of their size in order to function through fall. Thus we could create NPC wings and hopefully have enough active members in the others to do certain activities (though whether people would actually be interested in those things would be questionable at times).

[Lan]

First: My humblest apologies for my prior grouchiness. Even if I was having a terrible time RL, it was still no excuse for my behavior and I thank people for being understanding of me as I made a wherry's butt of myself.

Now on to business: I'm really liking all these ideas! ^^ I'm gonna give a few notes on them, if no one disagrees...

---

Active Posting. I'm really a fan of seeing, in particular, more WL posts around. If WLs were played more it would be particularly great for members who have wingriders with high ambitions to be able to play out some of their ideas to try to get their wingriders more prestige. Sort of like what happened with R'len promoting Astrid because she was reliable, it would allow for more instances like that to happen if we could get more active Wingleadership or even if people would simply be more open to playing their Wingleaders. I know S'in and Nemeth from my group would be particularly interested in upping their status a bit with their superiors.

Obviously I have no quarrels with CMs or WMs either. I've been meaning to start a once-a-month "Office Hours" thread for Candis to be able to post in smaller groups so that all their questions can get answered.

As far as the amount, though... I believe it would be beneficial to maybe have these threads twice an IC turn? So that would be one post for every two months? I think this would stimulate the needed activity without being too much of a drain on the player to think of things--especially since there seems to be some scandal or another once every two months that will need to be taken care of. Then, if we want to have Wingseconds participate as well, maybe have them post their duties once ever IC turn (one per 4 months) since their duties are not quite as strenuous?

TL;DR--
Active Wingleaders = more opportunity for promotions for the ambitious
WL/WM/CM requirements: 1 post / 2 months
Wingsecond requirements: 1 post / 4 months
Activity Checks: 1 / 6 months (?)

|| EDIT: Obviously there will be similar exemptions for posting requirements to activity checks, which I believe is important. RL drags us all away sometimes and those with something big going on for a temporary period of time should not be punished for that. I'm with Cath, though, in saying that these RL situations should not being ongoing (namely, taking up the space of 1-2+ OOC years). When I was gone for 1 OOC year Nimara was demoted from Wingsecond to Wingrider. I see no reason why anyone else should be treated differently.

---

Inactive Wing. I am SO into this idea. Especially in having an NPC WL/WS to make sure there's no oddities in having adoptable characters transferred. Goodness knows we have more than enough NPCs and adoptables to make up at least a wing. The only thing would be making the WL NPC... but it's a small cost in my mind to having a wing where people can transfer in and out easily as they're picked up and put down.

Possibilities of drama also lie here: Maybe there's a reason why people transfer in and out of this wing so quickly? Maybe the WL is a crap person, but is old and seasoned and therefore necessary for defense? People could complain about him and stuff, but have nothing to do about his position of power in his wing. It could be highly amusing and would give people yet another thing to gossip about.

TL;DR--
NPC/Adoptable Wing = awesome
NPC Wingleader = most efficient organization and supplement for good drama

[Admin]

TIME FOR A PROGRESS REPORT.

The records have officially been refurbished except for firelizard pictures. If anyone wants to put firelizards into boxes for me, that would be awesome. BUT OTHER THAN THAT, WE'RE GOLDEN THERE.

The library is also mostly updated. I need to tweak current events, dragon colors, wher colors, pillie colors, and wher clutch charts; complete firelizard colors, pillie clutch charts, and firelizard clutch charts; and update the actual history into a glorious story of gloriousness.

Staff policies will be added to the staff board. I'm currently trying to get us a picture of Power Ranges for the sidebar, because THAT IS SO NECESSARY. Advertising rules are also going to be updated.

Board descriptions and image highlights for them are in progress.

The database is currently looking sexier than ever; Kit has been working on it. We currently also having an artist doing human lineart. To see the approval sketch for the first model, click here.

Anything else non-AC related, my chickadees?

[larkwing]

I mentioned it before, but it was in the middle of all the genetic stuff so it probably was overlooked. I was wondering if we could have a glossary put into the library for people new to DRoP especially, but also just for reference. Words that are Dalibor made too, like Pillie and any others people can think of, definitely would be useful.

P.S. This mainly came up as an idea because Aika and I were debating about how long a dragonlength was for instance and realized that there are a lot of things that are generally known in context, but the actual meaning or what it looks like is not.

[Admin]

We could include a glossary along with the animal lists and the lists in the Pern information. A dragonlength isn't a specific length, but it can refer to refer to roughly the length of an average green to my knowledge. That would about twenty-seven feet. However, I have also heard it be the length of a gold.

[Lan]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but SUGGESTION OF THE UTMOST IMPORTANCE:

I move that there should be a time-limit for how long people can reserve adoptables. Such adoptables such as Anima/Zucchie and Durian/Mes which are highly desirable have had the people apping them go POOF but have never been returned to the list, which is not cool bro. If someone is going to go inactive after "reserving" for months and months on end, why not let the adoptables go back up on the list for someone who will app them and start them on the road to being active ASAP? Loving homes and all that nonsense.

Having activity checks twice a year would help with that, but there should really be something like a month max (and that's being VERY lenient) that people can hold onto an adoptable during the application process. It's really not fair to everyone else if others have an indefinite amount of time.

[Admin]

The fact of the matter is that we generally don't keep the adoptable list well-updated. This is largely due to the fact there is no adoptables that have ever been highly in demand. Even females who can clutch, such as Noyth and previous Sub-Queens, have never gone that quickly. Some are more desirable, but overall, they aren't big business so to speak. I've also been putting it off because we need to update it following the activity check and there are currently some that will need to be turned into NPCs.

Pillie colors as well as dragon and wher Queens have been updated to be easier to skim and to be more clear in regards to victors. Opinions before I continue? Wher and dragon clutch charts also know have normal victor percentages in them.

[Chek]

The bolding helps a lot, but I still stand behind splitting each info paragraph into two smaller paragraphs.

[Admin]

Current to-do list:
- images for whers and firelizards
- rewrite history
- finish updating dragons and whers with bolding
- update advertising rules
- update staff information and pictures
- update board descriptions with highlights

If individuals are interested in submitting information blurbs about specific Weyrs and major holds, I would be happy to use them for the hall, hold, and Weyr information I am working to construct. This will most likely require some research, but the blurbs should be short and this would be a big help.

Also, firelizard image table. That is still on list, but very low priority.

[Boo]

BELATED! Maybe a character retirement section as opposed to having all of them in the OOC forum ^^ Makes it a little easier to find some of em!

[Admin]

And now the Bre brings you something completely different!

You see my signature? Do you want that made available?

[larkwing]

Yes! It looks awesome Bre. :)